Sire's roll

toaksie · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: Sire's roll

This is a little bit premature as far as a question go's but breeding is something myself and my OH have considered in the future with our boy Shakespeare and a bitch that we intend to get when he is about 1 1/2 or so (please advise if we should wait less or longer i.e. what is the right age to introduce a new bitch to a dog). I have read through the checklist and feel that we are capable of dealing with the requirements stated. Our reasons for breeding are quite clear, firstly we adore dog's especially Labradors and we would like to help with the preservation of the breeds qualities, health and temperament. Secondly and this is principally because of our location (Barcelona, Spain), we feel that there are too many people that purchase Labs (and other breeds for that matter), from pet shops. An example of this may be Mr Guau's in Barcelona city centre, when we went there to grab a few bits for our boy we went to see some of the pups on sale (we obviously were not going to purchase one but i'm a sucker for pups), we asked out of curiosity if we could get details on the parents or pictures at least and were told no. The price they were charging for a Lab puppy was 1,200 euros with no pedigree history at all. To top it all off the pups are kept in smallish boxes with glass windows and are no doubt there the majority of the day, I dread to think what happens to them if they are not sold. To highlight my point this is considered the best pet shop in Barcelona and is by no means some dingy back ally place. These puppies are sold on to owners with no advice with regards to the breed, issues that may arise from the breed, things to watch out for, safety concerns or any assessment of the owners to be, or their ability to look after the dog. We would like, in our own small way to at least ensure that there was a good line of well bred Labradors, going out to good homes where the new owners understand the requirements of the breed and any issues they may face with them. We would also like to do this in a non-profit way and base our placement of puppies on the quality of the 'want to be' owners and not the size of their wallet. We would also like to provide post-placement advice to new owners that needed it to ensure the puppy is raised in the correct way. Sorry for the long winded post but I felt it was necessary to explain our reasons behind wanting to breed. the essential question I have is what are the key things a new breeder should watch out for or do to ensure we can achieve what I wrote about above. Thanks as always to this forum, also what roll do the sire's play after puppies are born.

rach_willibob · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:38 am Post subject:

Just a few initial thoughts:

I assume therefore you are going to get Shakespeare's hips, elbows and eyes tested/scored as a minimum? What will you do if the results from these aren't satisfactory? Who will determine if they are satisfactory (does Spain have its own scoring system)?

Have you shared your plans with Shakepeare's breeder? What is their take on it?

What are your plans to ensure that the bitch you buy is a good match for Shakespeare?

Given the purchasing of puppies from shops is common place in Spain, is there a market for dogs bred and sold in this way in Spain?

toaksie · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:51 am Post subject:

I agree with all that you have said rach_willibob, he certainly will be scored for eyes, hip and elbows (are there any others that are worthwhile), Spain does have a scoring system but I am currently researching how it compares to the UK one. If Shakespeare's are not up to standard then I would not take the risk and would put breeding on the backburner, one of the things we have considered is getting hip scores from the UK next time we visit. I have not yet spoken to his breeder yet but will do now that you have suggested it. Also there is certainly a market for it as breeders do exist but they are not as widespread as in the UK. With regards to a bitch are there any things other than her hips, eyes, elbows etc that you should take into consideration, thanks

Ju_M · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:58 am Post subject:

I don't know, not being an experienced breeder, but something to ask others- I know you've mentioned in the past how big he is- 40kg at 6 months?

I'd be worried this would pose problems. In his own health and joints, perhaps if he passed on his size to his pups they could also have problems with hips and joints, and maybe hearts put under extra strain?

Also, unless he stops growing now, he would be much larger than the breed standard states.... so would this be an issue to you?

sue51 · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:01 am Post subject:

JohnW · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:24 am Post subject:

Sorry, but when I read the title "Sire's Roll" I had in my mind, the old WW2 Spitfire pilot's "Victory Roll." Embarassed

dogsrock · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:55 am Post subject:

I think it sounds like an awful pet shop. Perhaps you could do more for the breed by helping with breed rescue, fostering, rehoming etc. Rather than introducing more pups. Here's a link to a Spainish dog welfare charity for you to check out - http://www.paws-patas.org/index.html. Perhaps you could volunteer, foster or rehome for them?

I understand that your intentions are admirable and I know very little of breeding or ensuring a "good line of well bred labradors" are available in your area. I would be more inclined to help out with the thousands of dogs who are already out there and need help.

toaksie · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:04 am Post subject:

We have considered his size as being a potential problem especially where joints etc are concerned but we are looking towards his score results to see how much of an issue it may be. I am of the opinion that he should have very very good results considering his size before we would move to the next stage and breed with him. Also I was wondering whether a smaller female may help to bring down the size of the puppies or would this not be the case. Also thanks for the pointers on sending plates off to be scored Smile

Scubabe · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:18 am Post subject:

Completely agree with Rach's post.

A note on your last question... If you had a small boned bitch, mated with a large boned dog (which, if he really is 40kg at 6 months then that's massive, most labs don't get that big as an adult much less as a 6 month old pup - are you sure you didn't mean 40lb??) then there could be problems with the pregnancy - all the puppies could take after dad and have massive bone structure and tear mum to pieces in labour, or get stuck in the birth canal and there's a chance that all the pups *and* mum could die in the process. Breeding is like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get Very Happy

. You may have a fair idea, but you don't know for sure!

Absolutely first things first you need to find a good breeder and ask if they would mentor you and allow you to attend several matings and several whelpings... good ones and difficult ones. When I say several, read that as LOADS Smile

Read every single whelping horror story you can find. And then ask yourself if you really want to put yourself through it all - an inexperienced breeder could get into real problems very quickly. You need to have a great support network.

I would recommend you buy The Book of the Bitch and read it cover to cover 3 or 4 times as well, it is an invaluable resource, but nothing whatsoever can replace experience and attending matings and whelpings.

Ness

Scubabe · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:27 am Post subject:

Oh, and you asked in your first post :