It's a system which works well with shows, so I cant see a reason for not using it. The only thing about shows is I believe the system is run by Fosse Data rather than individual show comittees, so the show sec does not have any extra work to do.

Regards, John

 

I think you've already hit the nail on the head Ian. Too many poeple are not PC savvy or have a PC, and therefore not happy with doing things by email. To some they think the Internet is black magic, and those using it should be dunked in the local pond.

I'm all for making FT Sec's life easier, but I think the issue will be one of control. If you put a central system in place, it will be seen as taking control away from clubs, and KC not trusting the clubs to run the FT's.

 

One problem with a third party running the entries is that with shows, if you enter in time you are in, where as with a trial, an entry is no garentee of a run. A draw must be made, and entrants must be allowed to be present at the draw. So a third party such as Fosse Data could only do a small part of the work.

I dont know how Fosse are paid for their work, but obviously they are reimbursed by some means, even if only by the profits (or part of the profits??) from the catalogues? But that would not raise much money in the case of trials, so I guess it would need a rise in the entry fee in order to pay them for their services. Could be a can of worms!

Regards, John

 

i see no problem with clubs still running the draws etc. My gripe is having to enter a trial in 2010 in the same way as it was done in the last century. There are a few clubs who send out running orders and directions for tests via e-mail so you dont have to include a SAE with your entry. Why not expand this. A simple form for your and your dogs details and an on line payment system. These on line shops manage do refunds etc easily. So if you get a run you make a payment, your dog goes lame you get a refund. Easy.
Some of the draws are made only a couple of weeks before the trial. Lets say it takes the secretary a couple of days to type and print the order, then another day to get into town to the post office. Then some poor weather and postman pat is late doing his rounds. Before you know it there are only seven days before the trial and you have to ask your employer for a couple of days holiday at short notice. I'm sure that the draw could be put on a web site in under 24 hours.

The same goes for membership. Here on LF as your membership expires you get an email cough up a few shillings via paypal and hey presto job done. Why not the same with clubs. I pay most of mine by standing order but i know some people don't so why not make it easy. Save a few trees and postage costs for the clubs.

 

The system WILL have to change as we can't use/write/issue cheques any longer in a few years time :wink: But just wait and see: we have all been pre-warned already by the banks but come the day when it happens and there will be panic as nobody knew about it :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: there will only be the option of cash (which you shouldn't send) and electronic payment. Maybe Fossdate would like to take up the challenge of a system to all the FT clubs?

Natasha

 

Whilst I have a lot of empathy in what Ian is saying we come back to the problem that Field Trials are run by amatuers for professionals!

As a start less then 50% of clubs have a web site so it follows there are a lot of people who are not computer literate, off the top of my head I can think on a FT Sec in the South West who runs a number of trials including a two day open this person does not even have a computer, the same club has three working members on the committee and cannot get any other people to serve.

I suppose one solution would be to allow all clubs to have electronic entry and clubs that cannot will loose their trialls that will reduce the numbers that qualify for the IGL but will make all entries a tad more difficult to get a run.

Electronic entry to Fosse data would make the whole thing more difficult on face value but I suppose some nice person could give up some of their valuable time doing research in to how this could be impemented, I suspect that there would be very few Volunteers for this role!

There is also the situation re nominations, for some clubs the nominations they receive help to keep the membership / FT entry prices down, to administer wether the nomination fee has been paid before the draw would be a nightmare for the FT sec, that is providing the bank / treasurer would allow the FT sec to access the accounts on line.

I suspect there would be also KC rules against the ability for an officer to be able to access and withdraw funds without the authorisation of the Treasurer of a second designated officer a further can of worms.

When we get to the stage of proper entries then it is not quite so bad, all the FT sec has to do is ensure that he/she gets payment on the day of the trial/ no fee no run however say the person withdraws the evening before the trial without a good reason, the FT sec cannot do as they do now and bank the cheque of the offender once again more admin for the FT sec either to ensure the forfit entry is paid or no entry next season.

As I started I do have a lot of empathy with what Ian says but it is not as simple as just doing the entry on line

 

At a previous club we looked closely into undertaking working test entries online. Probably as a first step to moving onto field trials. There were literally dozens of stumbling blocks. I have viewed many times the Fosse data site and this would be an entirely different animal.

Nick makes many of those very clearly and well above.

I think to GO this route there would have to be a paid, employed, salaried centre 'office' for field trial entries. For all the clubs. It would end up out of the hands of the individual clubs, then the clubs only have a small part of it, maybe putting out the schedules to their databases, and then making the draw. The rest would need to be tallied and put in the hands of a central, computer driven, central office which would then, at the end of the day, bank transfer the lot to the clubs bank account.

For clubs to do this individually would be a monstrous nightmare. It was easier with tests, because everyone who entered, in the main, gets a run, so cheques (or in the future as Natasha points out it will need to be bank transfers - that has been covered by most clubs.... we aren't just waiting for it and then panic as mentioned - chuckle .... ) can all be banked immediately more or less, or three days before the test anyway when the puling out on a whim date has passed.

It will be something that will happen I am absolutely certain in the future. Bu there are VERY few clubs who could even start to administer it right now. And enough would have to be keen enough to do it to set up this central administrator.

A final point. Only about 1/3rd of the gundog clubs have websites. As someone who keeps a list of all them as up to date as possible I know that. And of those 1/3rd.... have you seen how many are kept up to date, as in days or weeks, not months, or some, even YEARS....

That is because its very very hard to find people to administer them, and keep them current. Let alone run online, immediate, to the minute type systems via them for entries.

It will happen. But I really don't think yet. Give it ten years maybe ;-)

Di

 

" I know a new field trial sec. for next season not mentioning any names (Di), who is extremely literate with computers who may like to take up the challenge. "


Complete aside but BACK end of next season....not front ;-)

Do you know I wouldn't want to take the task up as a guinea pig. BUT as a quick overview, if I DID, and the club I am joining is a forward thinking one with one of the fastest best website administrators in the game, so could easily be one of the first to start online entries... we would need:

- Computer software shared exactly by every club.
- PC's that were infalliable. Mine absolutely is not. It is old and slow and blips a LOT.
- A much closer relationship with the treasurer than the current system, and their job, PC and understanding would have to be on the ball and absolute.
- An understanding that christmas shopping gets delieverd and ordered online because everyone involved is being paid a salary to do that as their FULL TIME job. Imagine with a 2 day open having to match up and chase 200 nomination payments to entries that would go in somewhere else, and then 24 entry moneies, then send back some for pull outs etc etc

Put it this way I don't fancy it.

I think the real problem (if it is one) is we are all getting used to absolute instant service these days with online stuff. At a stamp of our foot and a press of a button we get everything we want immediately. And we want it flawlessly. . And not every occupation, hobby, set up, and part of society is suited to matching that. Online entries are probably as likely to get swallowed blipped and accidentally deleted as lost post.

I do agree that bank transfers will need to come in instead of cheques, man clubs have that covered. But online entries? Is the system really so shoddy as it is? Talking of the pricwe of a couple of escalating stamps.... I bet entry fees / Nom fees would go up a LOT more than that to cover either software to adminster this OR to man and salary a central FT entry office.... ;-)

Di

 

I got a few thoughts on this one,

first is:

"(Di), who is extremely literate with computers "

have you been on the Sherry Ian ??, Literate is yeah erm perhaps erm well yeah, something like that ;-) !!!

What you guys are almost dreaming of is actually not that hard to create at all.
Technology behind Ebay, Paypal and also technology behind "build your own website" type things these days is not only very secure, But also from a users point of view very easy to use.

for instance, I have very much a fun website, I could within a few hours have it set up so that people could buy a entry to a field trial online. You would be supplied with a reference number which is unique to your own application and this £30 or however much it is would then be transfered into a holding account.

After the draw, reference numbers x, y and z could all be taken from the holding account and transfered into the main club account while the remaining ones are refunded with auto responses saying sorry your application was not sucessful.

In all honesty and this is no reference to Di at all, But i think the issue is perhaps that the majority of the folk organising trials are not perhaps as up to speed with technology and online payments etc as perhaps some younger folk who this is very much day to day stuff for. The traditional organisers perhaps see it as a huge big risk and with lots of manual interaction when it might not be the case at all.

It took me years to get my folks to buy something online as they were very wary of it, Security and it was "different" to what they were used to. Now it would seem weird to do anything different to them.

There are a lot of website / ecommerce people on here that know far more than me, but i genuinely think it could and also should be done and would infact surprise many people at how easy it would be.

 

A final point. Only about 1/3rd of the gundog clubs have websites. As someone who keeps a list of all them as up to date as possible I know that. And of those 1/3rd.... have you seen how many are kept up to date, as in days or weeks, not months, or some, even YEARS....

That is because its very very hard to find people to administer them, and keep them current. Let alone run online, immediate, to the minute type systems via them for entries.
Di

There are people out there willing to help with this :wink: I personally spent hours with one committee member explaining, help designing, go through set-up and so on. This was free as I saw this as another way to give something back to the club and its other members, plus it saved the club rather alot of money which could be put to good use somewhere else.

Nothing ever came out of it as it seemed some board members had no wish for the club to have a website. My point is that SOME of the club work will have to go electronic and this is the time to get it all set up, teach people, and get it running. :wink:

 

Surely the club should want to explore every avenue to promote it as much a possible, After all there is finance involved and also promoting the sport we do.

So for what could be as little as £5 a month, I do not understand why some clubs would NOT want a website other than being a tad scared of change and things going wrong.

Any website owners will know that its almost frightening how many people look at your site from far and wide and how easy it is to get people to look at them with very little effort.

Even to the point of me posting this will admittedly get me more views than if i hadn't (but i have nothing to sell, so am not a bad man ;0))

Imagine a club having an agreement with labforums, posting dates of tests / trials etc for a fee which i would think would be fairly minimal.
The number of hits that site will receieve would by far outnumber any interests that had about the club by post.

To me it really is a no brainer.

 

I don't have any checks since 100 years or so

If you have a working computer system, the system can do the draw :!:
And once the dog and owner are in the system you don't have to write the details anymore, like you are client at an online shop.

 

Just to brag a little - we've got the online possibility to enter almost all tests (ft's, cold game, wt's) run by different clubs.

The snail mail system is naturally available to those without internet connection.

The ft/wt/cold game calendar (koekalenteri) is found in our umbrella organization's site http://www.snj.fi/

 

First of all we need to have a serious go at the banks. As a club you can only accept standing orders and not direct debits - clearly that would make getting membership subs much easier and clearer - it is also a possible way of getting trial entries recovered (but that is fraught with problems as well).

Secondly as members you need to have a serious go at all clubs that change nomination or administration fees - they are the prime cause of all the problems with cheques. If you have a system where you have second preference in the draw and then charge these fees for every trial IMHO verges on fraud and this would be considered very, very sharp practise in any other field of business. If the trials are genuinely costing the clubs too much money then increase the membership fees so that everyone in the club shares the cost.

If a typical small club with say 500 members that ran two open and two novice trials got about 40 entries per trial (160 entries) they would get an income of £320 from a nomination fee of £2. But that income would be generated from probably only 100 members as everyone knows tyhe same people would enter at least once. However if you increased the membership by £1 the club would get £500 and the small rise would be shared equally. In the larger national clubs where they may hold six to eight trials which attract up to 200 entries per trial and have a membership of 7/8000 you can see that field trials soon become a money making machine and that for me is scandalous.

The biggest single cost in running are judges expenses and costs - and that is absolutely no relection on the judges themselves. Fuel costs, accommodation costs and dining out costs have risen out of all proportion to club membership costs and trial entry fees hence the emergence of these dubious nomination and admistration fees.

Every single KC registered club has a statement of their aims and they all say to run various events ,including working tests and or trials, for the benefit of the gundog breeds. Every member who joins that club automatically accepts those aims and so every member should accept the costs irrespective of whether your prime interest is showing, agility or working.

I have no problem, in theory, of accepting entries in writing or electronic format (in fact I would prefer electronic format as I would not have to decipher the wierd and wonderful writing from some people) BUT KC regulations demand that payment must be received in advance. This does protects the club from those that bend the rules however until such time as there is an alternative system provided by the banks cheques will have to stay.

 

I really honestly don't feel the showing side of the breed and multi dicipline clubs would be very thrilled with an increase in membership fee to cover the trials.

In the clubs I have been on the committee of (HGS, KSS and UGS), two of which have a showing side too, its been kind of accepted that trials make a loss, and in many many clubs, even with nomination fees they do make a loss or a pretty token profit.


" The biggest single cost in running are judges expenses and costs - and that is absolutely no relection on the judges themselves. Fuel costs, accommodation costs and dining out costs have risen out of all proportion to club membership costs and trial entry fees hence the emergence of these dubious nomination and admistration fees. "


But surely as you say, with these expenses and costs high and here to stay, indeed only, naturally enough, rise, and these expenses be to run good field trials, why should the expense be put on other club members and not those wishing to participate specifically in those trials? Why *should* it be spread amongst everyone not just those benefiting from the trials? As one who benefits I am not displeased at the idea, but I know a whole LOT who would.... (Like most of the floor during AOB at almost any clubs AGM who don't run in trials. Even the working test only people would kick up I feel...)? I'm not saying its not a good idea, but it sounds as if it would only be one for those who have to fork out nomination fees currently. Although I do appreciate totally that its the nomination fees that take up many many cheques. But right now that is not such a hardship is it? People who show frequently, 30 or 40 times a year know there will be several cheque books ripped apart a year currently.... we know that with trials?

Maybe just working only clubs could sell the idea of removing nomination fees and increasing general membership subscription fees, but I don't see the multidiscipline ones could. Yes they sign to be members of the *whole* club, but it would create fury in some quarters......?

The whole 'online entry' discussion, i'm sure will continue, a of course it will sometime be the way of the future, but right now, it would be very difficult. The system may be straightforward, Andy, but its hard enough to get most committees to agree if they will have blue or green tablecloths, let alone coordinate the whole working competitive gundog world to employ online entry systems.

If it were simple enough for canine societies to get committee members to take online systems on, and adminstrate them well, the show side wouldn't have fosse data they would be doing it themselves, club by club, and showing is far simplier, you pay your entry and its cashed, there is no such thing as holding acounts or pulling out or not getting a run. And to be fair, the showing side often seem to have younger more computer literate folks than the working side in my experience in the main. If it *were* easy, i believe they would be doing it by now...

The KC need to take a hand in this I feel. Maybe design the software to standardise things. Maybe run seminars to show WT and FT secretaries AND Treasurers and whoever is going to be the IT bunny of EVERY committee how to use it effectively... maybe they should be that central employed office, salaraied and ready to administer this for clubs (like the aforementioned Fosse Data). But they probably have enough to do ;-)

Di

 

Coming back to original point, as far as I'm concerned anything that takes the Royal Mail out of the equation has got to be good.

After last years postal chaos we now post all our Field Trial draws, plus relevant entry form on our website. The logical next step is to simply fill in the online entry form and email it back to me.

It was announced in our Autumn Newsletter, and members were advised that they could just download the draw and entry form from the clubs site, and no longer send SAE's if they wished. However, I think I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who have taken advantage of this new service, and when I mention it most aren't even aware that it's there....

So the first challenge is to get members to actually read their paperwork!

My local postal service is currently practically non-existent, and with a trial coming up on the 10th of Jan I found myself last night (closing date) with only 10 returned entries. All I can do is phone everyone to find out whether their form is in the post, and take it from there. Oh, and get as many as poss to email me their entries instead :?

On the matter of who should contribute towards the cost of the trials - it has to be the people who want to run in them, surely. Our club is a general working gundog society, but within our membership we have those who only belong to take advantage of the summer training and working tests, but never wish to trial. They are already subsidising the cost of the trials with their WT entry fees and training fees.
Most clubs subs are at around the £10 mark now - any more than this and I think we're liable to lose members, which would be counterproductive.
I see the nomination fee system as a way of drawing an extra fee from those who wish to trial, and then I do feel that it is up to those who actually GET the runs to contribute more, that is, via the entry fee.
By the way, this season I've been hearing about clubs who take your entry fee even if you're offered a run from the reserves and you decline it, not just after you accept and then subsequently withdraw. A nice little money-maker for sure, but totally unethical in my book!

 

" After last years postal chaos we now post all our Field Trial draws, plus relevant entry form on our website. The logical next step is to simply fill in the online entry form and email it back to me. "


Kate, Could they fill in the entry form online and email it to you or was it there to print off only? How do you see paying online too as you move forward? Teaming up nom fees and entry money coming into the bank account on a day to day basis? Do you see it as simple between you and the Treasurer to administer this? Or with a few tweeks maybe to the current bank accounts and so on?

I do wonder what the uptake would be? I am 36 and don't even enter shows online although the chance has been there for a few years now.... I wonder if we can train your average retirement age trialer (gentle smile) to enter online or if its just for the minority to use who happen to fancy it.

I wonder if the future is ONLY online entries, or a choice?
Di

 

"Kate, Could they fill in the entry form online and email it to you or was it there to print off only? How do you see paying online too as you move forward? Teaming up nom fees and entry money coming into the bank account on a day to day basis? Do you see it as simple between you and the Treasurer to administer this? Or with a few tweeks maybe to the current bank accounts and so on?

Currently the entry form is up in pdf format only, but it would be a pretty simple step to have it as an online entry form - something that I will be bringing to the committee.
I suppose we are something of an oddity, in that my husband is an ex-IBM software developer, so we're both used to doing as much as poss electronically. In fact, all my final communications with judges etc is done via email - at least I know they get the details! As a committee we also do an awful lot by email.

The payment online thing will be a little more complex I feel, but something that will come, and needs to come. It's definitely something I've been thinking about for some time, but needs to be looked into carefully. I enter all shows online for sure (where possible), but it's a very different process to Trial entries. For one thing you dont get your money back if you don't go to a show! At the moment the entry cheque is a holding tool, a statement of intent and a commitment to take a run should one become available. Would it be possible to replicate this with an online credit card payment system?If so it would have to be set up so that all who entered committed up front, but the money was only taken from those who ran, after the event.
Personally I doubt it would be something that could be changed overnight, but I do feel that if a good, well thought out online version was offered it would be taken up more and more - it's just a case of letting people get used to the idea! :wink:

 

Must confess I havent read all these posts in detail but just to mention that on-line entries for shows incurr a cost to the society of about 3% due to the card charges that are incurred.

Just a small point but with the expenses involved in FT's on-line entries would actually cost more. Even with the shows KSS restrict on-line entries to the Championship Show only as it isnt viable for a smaller event

 

I think the general consensus is that the actual entries would be easy on line and any problems are in the payment. Given the option i would pay a 3% surcharge to pay online. If the entry form and nomination were rolled into one and then the FT sec will know that all nominations are paid. Then when the draw is posted on a web site those lucky souls who have a run can tranfer the funds. Sooner or later the change has to come. I am in my 40's and before too long my generation will become the retiree's who are the mainstay of commitee's across the country. It is us that need to push to bring our sport up to date.

 

First welcome Camburne (Bruce) a Labrador called Fido I think not, maybe a yellow long haired strain.

Back to the topic, there are a number of posters saying that payment on line would be easy with a bit of computer nous, I dont necessarly disagree however most committee members are not on the committee because they have the urge to serve, most have been press ganged (Ok smooth talked) into helping, they have the job they are to do outlined to them and reluctantly they serve, once on the committee do they think oh lets get a computer course, lets make me and the rest of the committee more work no, they want to keep the club working with the minimum of fuss and the least amount of work.

As a pointer how many people on this thread are serving on a committee and more importantly are officers, I know Di has done her thing Kate has but how many other people are, change must come from within, if the system needs changing join a committee and then take on the task.

 

T At the moment the entry cheque is a holding tool, a statement of intent and a commitment to take a run should one become available. Would it be possible to replicate this with an online credit card payment system?If so it would have to be set up so that all who entered committed up front, but the money was only taken from those who ran, after the event.

Kate, you already have this function if you use Paypal - the 'buyer' send the money to 'seller' but the money doesn't physically leave the 'buyer' account until the 'seller' make a withdrawal - it is 'on hold' by paypal. You can refund money and 'buyer' doesn't need a paypal account but can use it as a one off credit/debit card payment.

Natasha

 

I can't really get in on the debate as Luna and I are VERY much into fundog side of things. I just wanted to say that I was having a chat with the founder of the agility league I've become involved in as she was having to consider how things move forward with payments/entries.

Running orders/schedules/results/leagues are all up on the website http://www.baa.uk.net/ and used by many (click on shows, running orders, ring cards to see how many at quite a small show) so I can see that online entry/payments aren't going to be too difficult to use once set up... HOWEVER, there are a lot of people who don't request online information on their entry form so get their running orders/schedules through snail mail. For them to suddenly HAVE to do EVERYTHING online is going to be a problem. How the association deals with this to ensure they don't lose dedicated people and dogs is going to end up being time consuming for the organisers I think.

As an aside I'd love to see more gundog clubs with websites as a newbie I've done most of my learning about tests,training etc through LF, I'd be more inclined to be brave enough to go along to a local club if I could get a feel for them from a website first... who knows I might even get involved for the social aspects despite having a lunatic of an unsteady lab!

 

As a pointer how many people on this thread are serving on a committee and more importantly are officers, I know Di has done her thing Kate has but how many other people are, change must come from within, if the system needs changing join a committee and then take on the task.

Nick - I am Secretary of the Kent, Surrey & Sussex Labrador Retriever Club. You are dead right when you say the difficulty is finding people willing to "do" something and in many cases it is the same few on a committee that do the work. My job for the main part is extremely labour intensive, but then as a breed club the structure and work involved has a different dimension to a gundog club. We of course do have FT and Working Test Secretary that serve there particular department but I certainly do my utmost to attend the Working Tests and Field Trials as well.

I cannot see why the cuurent on-line entry system could not be extended to Trials and tests but suspect it may simply be that no-one has enquired.

Fosse data, in my experience, provide an excellent service to Secretaries and provide them with various reports.

In the context of FT I suspect the best way would be via a paypal account but this causes difficulties as the Kennel Club regulations do not allow for any on-line banking facilities. There is a specific rule about having two signatories which doesnt no fit with on-line banking and money handling facilites.

On a separate matter I have got to check with the Kennel Club as I wish to know whether they will be amending the red Book to take account of the fact that "cheques" will be abolished. This will of course, have a significant bearing on how clubs act and record their members monies.

 

Been on a committe, and had discussed creating a website for them at my expense. the upshot was that the majority of committee members don't want to change something that works for them.

"In the context of FT I suspect the best way would be via a paypal account but this causes difficulties as the Kennel Club regulations do not allow for any on-line banking facilities. There is a specific rule about having two signatories which doesnt no fit with on-line banking and money handling facilites."

Er, actually you can have 2 signatures on an online bank account. My company requires 2 signatures to be able to pay any money. If you have a personal, dual account, then you can ask for this account to be double signatures. Not difficult. Or are you talking about the accounts of the club, or the returns to the KC?

The latest from banks is they are bringing in a system, where you give a "voucher" stating you intend to pay that person. This is supposed to be replacing cheques, but sounds like a cheque to me.

Seems to me as the general concensus for the "committee" is why change something that "works".

Oh and Happy New Year